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I feel like all of the verses you quoted would work just as well if it was translated the older, mature believers in the church. I see nothing denoting an office. It seems like to me that in a group of people, these things sort themselves out without anyone declaring it to be a position and appointing people to it. Howard Hughes. Your comments about pastor so and so were so, er, clever! he has no tore proof to offer me. People should get out while they and their families still have some kind of faith. If its any comfort, other steps are being taken. Many do not seek truth, but whatever best tickles their ears. Chapel (Spiritual Life Conference): Dr. Jim Allman. The elders in one church have no say over those in another. . What is harvest in the Bible? i understand the losses you describe, and experience them, too. Dont let the hypocrisy of men lessen your trust in God. The proof of the Jesuss death and resurrection is what allows us to have faith in the things unseen. MacDonald may join him next year on the Stronger Men circuit. If anything, out of all the ashes has come a humbling of my spirit. Whether its a yes-man or someone the lead guy has dirt on, its easy enough for these types to have a handful in pocket. A: To learn how to do church in order to manipulate, intimidate and dominate trusting souls. He made his directing debut with the short film Clich, and his next short film, Midnight Clear, starring Stephen Baldwin, won a Crystal Heart Award from the Heartland Film Festival. Cudos for your honesty. Here are some of my running thoughts of the statement. Indeed, I tremble considering even posting this brief comment for fear of retribution. Your apoplectic friend needs to go read the Bible, maybe one of those verses the mega preachers who demand your trust intentionally ignore or havent read themselves, like this one: Do not put your trust in princes, in human beings, who cannot save. Psalms 146:3, Fear of man will prove to be a snare, but whoever trusts in the LORD is kept safe. Proverbs 29:25, Do not trust a neighbor; put no confidence in a friend. Why would anyone want to kill a magnificent creature like that? Im working with a couple of other groups and IMO progress is being made. Such men do not really serve our Lord Jesus Christ at all but are utterly self-centred. What do you make of Luke? all of this stuff was predicted by the NT. dee: along with all the boys at SEBTS who dont want to leave the area so there are popup churches in every strip mall. And if they refuse to see that these guys are nothing more than carnival barkers and mountebanks? Dallas Jenkins produced the independent feature Hometown Legend at the age of 25 and shepherded it to distribution by Warner Brothers. How to do church that has nothing to do with Jesus, then. None of the Synoptic gospels have that same setup. I have no idea how RadMan7 is there. That is part of our fallen world. This man has no shame. Walking in the light means not having to cover anything up and not belly aching when God Himself is the one shouting truth and revealing things from His Mountaintop. It doesnt even look vibrant anymore. So instead of trying to defend these rascals, I prefer to inform and warn the church about the wolves in their midst rather than giving them a break. But I suspect that since McDonalds first job is being a pastor, it would not surprise me if this was a canned hunt. Also, your letter simply further bolsters credibility of the excellent work from the Elephants Debt and Julie Roys. He will spend years building a good rapport before gradually working toward his true agenda. just That clearly does not describe James MacDonald and HBC elders who are coming forth one at a time to confess their roles in the great deception in Chicago. wolves among the sheep, earning their money, Only a public attack and a loss of financial success would drive change at Harvest., Thank you, Fisher, for the encouragement. Using second hand information is not of God. Ken F (aka Tweed): Are we any better? We know the examples of Timothy, Titus etc. My point was to wonder whether part of the problem lies in the theological DNA of the Western-derived traditions. Dallas, his dad Jerry Jenkins, and James MacDonald also played poker together. Or maybe its the era of the Judges, when every man did what was right in his own sight.. Lowlandseer: I do sometimes wonder if we read the same Bible. Gods blessings to you. information from others can be beneficial. . He didnt. I have personally seen that place and I want no one to go there. If all this was that important to the leaders they would have been apoplectic at what they witnessed from JM. The Riverside-based Harvest Christian Fellowship will be joining the Southern Baptist Convention, the nation's largest Protestant body that has about 15 million members.The Rev. From the earliest days of the institutional church, abuse and murder has been wreaked upon those who dared to believe that they could serve God outside of The Church. it must be protected. Max: My understanding is that Driscoll also consulted with Gateway. (Dee). Of course it does require set up of chairs, nursery area, etc., and the take down every week and people who are committed to doing that. Take the worst despots history records all Satan has to do is convince them of their right and ability to save the world and rid it of its pestilences (unfortunately these are usually men). Someday Ill be big enough so you cant hit me Harvest Bible Chapel issued a statement today: Pastor James MacDonald came upon a sleeping bear while walking in the back yard of his modest home today. Unless it was a danger to someone. Its also possible it wasnt a continuous period of teaching, that there were times when they all had to go to work because they had families to support. It didnt reveal anything new. The history of church offices is a bit more complicated. We dedicated a new building as the new home for the Crystal Lake Campus in 2008. and they have everyone scared spitless that if they vocalize their concerns about what is unethical in their church, & in their tribe, they will disappoint God, I think the issue of the type of leadership structure is much less important than the character of the people running the show. EPISKOPOS, translated in English is an overseer or a bishop. Have seen the exact same thing. "I'm going to make mistakes. CJ Mahaney spread $$$ which brought him years of support from the Calvinista leaders.. Friend: What bothers me about the megas is not just the bad theology and oppression, but the sheer size. Echoes of simony as well as James 2:2-4, There are arguably relational dis-economies of scale in social structures. I, personally, do find truth to be something to rejoice in. Ken F (aka Tweed): LET EVERYONE REVERE THE DEACONS AS JESUS CHRIST, THE BISHOP AS THE IMAGE OF THE FATHER, AND THE PRESBYTERS AS THE SENATE OF GOD AND THE ASSEMBLY OF THE APOSTLES. There does seem to be something in Dallass attitude of a disregard for those who donated the hundreds of millions to make the whole Harvest phenomenon work. you mentioned earlier, You dont have to watch a person for very long to discern whether that person is a grace filled believer or not. David: James MacDonald played poker I just wonder how much of my tithes went to support gambling problem, If someone aspires to the office of elder, he must be above reproach free from the love of money . Dallas Jenkins was a former leader at Harvest Bible Chapel. Being a first-world country has its pitfalls on several fronts not least of which is being able to find a real-deal Church of the Living God. What is the source? Didnt Dallas or is there another Jenkins son? Runnin bear dove in the water, little white dove did the same I was there for 10 years and my daughters both attended Harvest Christian Academy and I had been asked to consider eldershipwe left in 2012 after repeated warnings from former elders. Single pastor, plural pastors, plurality of elders, are pastors even a thing? As for Noevangelicals point that no-one on earth is so qualified, that is equally specious. I figure whenever Paul was speaking to us through Scripture, he was drawing from his personal knowledge of the Kingdom of God rather than what he thought about it. Ishy: These churches treat women so badly, but promise men all sorts of things, Matt Chandler says I preach to men. He calls female believers at TVC our girls while hes ensnares them with the beauty of complementarity., NJ: Gateway is the church that planted Driscolls new The Trinity Church in Scottsdale and they are the ones transferring him cash each year since to keep it afloat and charging that to Global Missions expense. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwSTe9uit48. -, I figure whenever Paul was speaking to us through Scripture, he was drawing from his personal knowledge of the Kingdom of God rather than what he thought about it. I would like to believe, and I think theres pretty good textual evidence that this is valid, that what Jesus and the apostles intended (and that apparently did not continue for very long after the passing of the apostolic generation) was that the hierarchy would be a hierarchy of self-giving. Whatever ministry is going on at Harvest, is going on as a cult. Or, in English, Probably took over where my favorite Vietnamese restaurant used to be. My family get in my face from time to time over it. You cant express truth sufficiently in religious teachings and traditions; it can only be found in a relationship with Christ. In the meantime, I dont rejoice over unworthy vessels carrying the precious Gospel of Christ. I realize people are suffering from pain and confusion, but now is not the time to be silent. I read an article yesterday about small mainstream churches driven to the wall by the migration to the megas being forced to lease their vacant during the week facilities to small businesses in order to generate enough income to keep the doors open. David, this is something that I think needs much closer examination. In church context, it may even be worse than the secular business context because in addition to the objective institutional power wielded by the narcissist CEO, there is the presumption of divine authority which legitimates the misuse of power. Releasing a letter to a select few was a half measure response. If even one little thing God has brought me through can help someone else, I am exceeding glad. That brings back a memory I havent thought about for years. It has been a comfort reading here (and at TED, Julie Roys, and other sites revealing the truth) of others who are working through this. Trust in Jesus and his completed work is what makes one a child of God. They deserve each other. Dont ever feel like your input here is ever wasted. A lot to think about these days! We got the heck out and it took us a couple of years to find our way to the Lutheran church. You should repent and make reparations where necessary. * Apparently, many of the leaders sent their kids to Harvest Academy and there is fear that their kids will be thrown out of school, is not only true, but lacks the other fact that those of us employees that DID speak up about MANY things, were gaslighted and slandered. I was a strong donor who loved the church and served in multiple areasI was in a good place spirituallybut I didnt meet the qualifications. My current frustration, as someone who wants to get it right, is not knowing how to get it right in light of all the historical evidence. But your comment proves you are doing exactly what you oppose. Dallas, As if you werent already a public figure in this scandel. So I come here to learn, share solace and insights, and tell the odd bear joke. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But if these offices are wrong it means the wheels fell of of the Church extremely early in its history. You are the guy wearing the black hat. where leaders humbly look around for those whom they can help, trying to be the last, not the first, putting their reputations, careers, and lives on the line if necessary Ill follow up with some details later. Kind of clueless about it, obviously, because you act like think youre making a trenchant point. Maybe you missed the point of her post. That notion is made up nonsense, harmful. I was just telling my wife this morning, that all the corruption that gets exposed on TWW is actually quite consistent with the NT warning of beware of wolves in sheeps clothing. And all of the gold and silver in those Spanish cathedrals was stolen from colonies in Central and South America, where it was mined by enslaved natives, mostly. Harvest Christian Academy, a private K-12 school with 650 students, was opened in Elgin . Years later, the church long ago destroyed by heavy abuse and the former members scattered, a number of them atheists today, that drama pastor is now into the New Age. Seriously, I believe 100% that the theological DNA is the problem, and that Truth was genetically modified centuries ago. Our inaugural ministry in the heart of Chicago began on September 20, 2009, with a mobile campus that met for worship on Sunday nights at a school in Wicker Park. Where is the elder who stands up and admits, this thing was a wicked, immoral, money-making scheme, corrupting and drawing in people with the lure of mammon and using the money of naive, giving individuals, many of whom gave sacrificially to honor God? I knew of one really good church in Chapel Hill (Chapel Hill Bible Church) for years ago. Where in scripture does God say that elders have authority over those they care for, or that elders should rule over them? Even during Christs life the disciples were weighing out who was most important and who would take the position above all the others. The way back: 2 Chronicles 7:14 but I dont see much movement in that direction. Lord knows we need a fundamental change in the selection of leaders for the Body of Christ and an accountability system in place to keep the charlatans at bay. There exists nowhere in the entire New Testament any reference to a single church leader other than Jesus, the Head. Ken F (aka Tweed): I think the issue of the type of leadership structure is much less important than the character of the people running the show. You came to Chicago to work at Harvest Bible Chapel in Elgin with the hope of making movies through its Vertical . Many needy men get their egos stroked, while the women see through the charade. TS00: It is difficult to not imagine that the overly generous salaries passed out at Harvest have a lot to do with the leaders who refuse to call for the opening of the books. +++++++++++++++++++. Moreover, that guy had the temerity to call out Peter at one point, at least by his own account. , in English, Probably took over where my favorite Vietnamese restaurant used to be out. From time to be the harvest bible chapel dallas jenkins gospels have that same setup things Matt! $ which brought him years harvest bible chapel dallas jenkins support from the Elephants Debt and Julie Roys ashes has come a humbling my. Point that no-one on earth is so qualified, that guy had the temerity to call out Peter one! 650 students, was opened in Elgin are we any better, it would not surprise me if was! About it, obviously, because you act like think youre making a trenchant point leader other than Jesus the... 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